Breakeven Brothers

Bennett Bernard (00:17)
welcome to the fourth episode of the Breakeven Brothers podcast. My name is Bennett Bernard. Of course, I'm joined by my co -host, Bradley Bernard. Brad, how was San Diego? I know you went there on Saturday for a special event. Do want to tell us more?

Bradley Bernard (00:29)
Yeah, it was my fiance's birthday. And so we went out to San Diego and went to Coronado Island. That was a lot of fun. Took the ferry across from San Diego downtown both ways. And then we caught a Padres game. So that was cool. Saw a home run, but our seats were directly in the sun. the game was at four and our seats were on the first base side, pretty high up there.

And I was like, no, like we're gonna need a lot of sunscreen. And so when we walked over, we sat down in our seats. It was a little bit grueling to sit through like two hours of sun, because we already had sun earlier that day. And I was like, all right, need a hat, need sunscreen. But yeah, it was a fun day.

Bennett Bernard (01:09)
That's awesome. How did the sun compare? Cause we went to a spring training game. well, what was that back in March, March or April camera? What exactly that was? and Tempe and we were directly in the sun. were sitting behind third base. How did that sun compare to the Padres game? Like, was it the same worse or

Bradley Bernard (01:18)
Mm

Probably that one wasn't as bad. I think in San Diego when I went, it just felt like it was very face level. Like I couldn't hide from it. And I wanted to like walk around and find a different angle, but I liked our spot. And so was like, Oh, I want to watch the game, but I don't want to leave because you know, the sun's right in my face. But yeah, I say it felt a little bit worse. But I think it's also because it was only like 80 degrees maybe. But it just felt like way

Everyone next to us was standing up and once people got up, you saw the massive sweat stains. I was like, yeah, me too, me too.

Bennett Bernard (02:05)
Nice, hey we're all in this together, don't judge.

Bradley Bernard (02:07)
Yeah, there's a lot of sweat stains at that stadium.

Bennett Bernard (02:10)
That's awesome. So you guys took the ferry so you didn't do the bridge to Coronado, like that really crazy bridge.

Bradley Bernard (02:15)
No, I parked there because I wanted to find stadium parking and just like parking for the day. So I found a parking lot, parked there like all day, then took the ferry back and forth and then caught the game. So it was a little hard to find parking that was like on the cheaper side for an all day safe lot.

Bennett Bernard (02:31)
Yeah, yeah, and that stadium is right in downtown. It's a pretty cool stadium. So that's

Bradley Bernard (02:35)
Yeah, I liked it. was nice. It's huge. So many people too. Yeah. How was your weekend?

Bennett Bernard (02:39)
That's cool. Awesome. Well, it sounds like sounds like she had a pretty cool day. It was good. It good. Lots of birthday parties. So, you know, at this stage of my life, my weekends typically have our kids birthday parties. So we had two of those. We had one on Saturday and one on Sunday. So that was a lot of fun, of course. Very busy. Gets kids energy out, which is nice. And I think there was something else I did on Saturday, but now I can't think of what it was. no, just normal soccer practice kind of stuff.

Bradley Bernard (03:01)
I feel that.

Bennett Bernard (03:04)
Pretty quiet weekend overall. but yeah, sometimes those are good. Sometimes those are needed because whether it's works busy or something, you know, it's good to kind of just sloth around the house a little bit. So I'll take it.

Bradley Bernard (03:15)
Yeah, I did that today. I didn't do a whole lot. Just kind of prep myself for hopefully a nice big weekend. So looking forward to

Bennett Bernard (03:24)
You're getting prepped for this, I think. Prep for this episode. Yeah. Awesome. Cool. So one thing we've been talking a lot about like work related stuff and you your role as an engineer, my role in the accounting space. And one thing that has become more of a focus for me as I've kind of grown in my career is attending industry conferences or even just more informal like social gatherings. And so

Bradley Bernard (03:26)
yeah. yeah.

Bennett Bernard (03:52)
there was a specific conference I went to, I want to say in 2021, and it was part of like an industry conference. So was in like the real estate mortgage industry. And I remember going to that and thinking it was awesome. And it was my first time I had attended like an industry specific conference. I think I had been to like other like social mixers and stuff like that. So it was done really well. And I remember going there, getting a lot out of it, but then also feeling like I was a little just unprepared overall.

And I kind of made it a point that when I go to my next one that I'm going to kind of have these things that I'm going to do. And I've started doing that with like just regular work trips and stuff that I do now. So not like big conferences, but like kind of going when I go and meet people in person because I work fully remote when I go meet people in person again, it's like I have these things that I kind of try and do just for myself to kind of get the most out of those experiences. So before I kind of go into my own list, I want to kind of hear from

Is there importance to attending industry conferences in your world? Have you attended some? And if you have, what some that you've attended? What have you got out of those?

Bradley Bernard (04:58)
Yeah, I like attending them. I think it's fun to meet a lot of people in person. I've done the iOS one. So I think I went to one in 2017. Uh, was in San Francisco. It was a Swift conference. I think it was try Swift, not a hundred percent sure. went under PayPal. So that was fun. Met a lot of people that I didn't like, wouldn't have the opportunity to meet in person. A few Apple engineers that had worked directly on Swift, a lot

industry folks who are just at big companies working on cool stuff. But yeah, it's besides doing the mobile stuff also did web went to Laracon I think in 2016. And then went to Laracon again last year. And I think I also went to one more mobile and I think about it in New York. I think that also might've been a tri -Swift conference. But yeah, I've been to both mobile and web, but I think conferences are really important because it gets you out of your comfort zone. Like you talk to more people.

You get to meet some experts on it. then I think depending on who you are as a person, some of the conference talks can be really, really good material. Like there's the technical ones that I go to that are, you know, learning new skills. And there's also the kind of the soft skills aspect of like in engineering, you review code and that's pretty much interfacing with another human being who wrote the code. How do you review their code and tell them how to make changes without being over the

And so when you go to these conferences, there's like a mix of skill levels and terms of people presenting the content, like what your own skill level is, but it's just nice to go there, meet people and see what people are talking about. gives you a really good pulse on the industry where people are spending their money, like who is attending these conferences. And, yeah, I feel like you can get a lot out of it, but it also depends on how much you put into

Bennett Bernard (06:45)
Yeah, yeah, super well said. think that's exactly the kind of takeaway I got from that one I was referring to where, you know, I definitely came into it wanting to get a lot out of it and I certainly did, but I was like, if I want to maximize this, then there's things I should probably come prepared to do to kind of like, you know, whether it's meeting certain people or talking to X number of people. one thing that, one thing that always stuck with me and, you'll probably relate to this, of course.

So dad or our dad, he originally it was a software engineer became more on the sales side. And he would always, I think whenever I'd hear him talk about his work or just even just kind of just getting together, I think he would always kind of set up these like little missions of like, when I go to this event, I'm going to meet like I'm going to talk to five people or even like even more informal, like, you know, if they're like on vacation.

He'll tell us a story about how he got everyone at the bar to tell them what their favorite vacation was and stuff like that. So I think little things like that, coming with little missions in mind that kind of just like, this is what I want to get out of this. Certainly something that I've trying to do more now. so, for example, on my last kind of remote work trip where I'm going to see people in person.

Like kind of saying there's certain people I want to kind of make sure I talk to like talk to them online all the time, of course, but want to make sure that like, hey, we're in person. Great to see you. Just grab, you know, five minutes of your time if we're all just super busy. So having that kind of specific point of like, I want to go ahead and either meet that person or talk to that person or if it's not even a specific person, but like, you know, if you're going to a technical conference, you know, maybe there's a bunch of different sessions. Like I really want to make sure I attend this session.

And so like from your perspective, do you go into it or like has that process changed for you? Like when you first started going to conferences, is it kind of the same still or has that kind of evolved as you've attended more conferences and then similarly like, okay, I'm focused on these things when I go to this specific conference.

Bradley Bernard (08:43)
Yeah, when I was an employee at a company, my main focus was actually to go scout what people were talking about, attend all these talks that I can. Usually the conferences that I went to were single track, meaning there wasn't multiple speakers. was, you know, one event followed by another and just one large auditorium. So I would take notes on that, find the things that were relevant to us. for example, in the mobile world, like as we're building out an app, we'd have certain challenges with accessibility or testing.

And out of all the conference talks that may be 20 in a two day period, maybe five or six would be extremely applicable. And I'd take notes on those and bring those back to the team and say, I went there, this is what I learned, this is I met. And I think this is how we can apply that learning to help us build a better app. And that was a key ticket because my managers at the time would love to hear that. We don't want to send people off to a conference. They disappear for two days, come back with empty hands.

And so not only did it help me learn by like, I had to take notes, but also I deliver results to the team. People will be leveled up by that knowledge and you know, we'd move forward. But speaking of going to the company, when I went by myself for Laracon last year, I had the exact checklist that you mentioned of I've talked with these, you know, eight people on Twitter over the past year or, you know, eight months. I want to go talk to them because there's a difference between talking to people online and actually talking to them in

I felt that working as like, you in the COVID era of remote employer, like it's way different when you are interfacing with someone in person, then you go online and talk to them versus like just being that transactional online relationship that a lot of these relationships tend up being. So like when I went to Laracon I was like, hey, I got to meet these people. I want to talk to them. Did I think like 90 % of my list like knocked them all out. And it can be a little awkward at times like approaching people, especially if they're speakers, you know,

like this guy, I'm like the 50th guy to talk to, you know, XYZ name. And I'm sure they're like relieved that they did their conference talk, but also like tired of talking to like Mr. No Name, who's just like wants to say hi. You know, so I'm sure it's awkward from both sides. But when I was like attending conferences as an employee, I didn't have any of that. It was like, hey, I'm to show up. I'm going hang out with my team, which I always was comfortable with. Like I didn't really push myself to go outside of

you know, the comfort zone at a conference. And then when I went as an individual, like self -employed, I was like, you know, I paid my own money. I'm going to like get a lot out of this. And so I'm going to go meet these people, chat with them. Like maybe it's like slightly more aggressive, but it's just things that I need to do since like I'm paying.

Bennett Bernard (11:22)
Yeah. Yeah. That's a great point. mean, calling out to that, can be awkward for sure. You know, it's something the accounting, like recruiting process is pretty like established. So basically an accounting program is across the country. You know, when you're a junior, you'll start kind of talking to firms and you'll want to get an internship for that summer going from junior to senior year. And then hopefully after your internship, they give you a job offer. Right. So that's exactly what I did with a PWC.

Bradley Bernard (11:26)
yeah.

Bennett Bernard (11:51)
But it's you get so used to like attending like those social events and like they're, what's the right word? Optional. But like basically if you don't go, like you're not going to get a look, you know, so you try to attend them all. And in my case, I was interviewing with all four of the big four. And so like I was going to so many events and it was a bit overwhelming, but you kind of get used to it and you develop that muscle of like small talk in a way. And I would say I'm someone who's not, I'm definitely not naturally a talker. I

Bradley Bernard (12:15)
Yeah.

Bennett Bernard (12:19)
tend to be more on the introvert side. I'm not extreme, but I would just, you know, if I had my choice, I'd probably just have a smaller group, if not just by myself. So I definitely have to kind of push myself out there. But, you know, I would recognize when I was getting better at it and better at it. But I remember there's a point in my career where I had kind of, I wasn't sure if I wanted to actually even stay in the counter. There was a point in my career where I was really kind of down. I was just not really...

Bradley Bernard (12:25)
Mm -hmm.

Bennett Bernard (12:43)
In love with where I was at in terms of like trajectory and stuff like that and I kind of felt myself like shrinking in a little bit and so going to events in that time frame was harder because it was like, you know, I don't know what I have to offer or like, know, I don't even know what I want for myself. And so I think the big thing for me with those is like. I think some of the awkwardness is.

avoidable if you just feel pretty comfortable with like what you're there to do and like into who you are. And I guess my point being is that in those moments when I was recruiting or even now I feel much more like comfortable with who I am. Like this is Bennett Bernard, the professional. Like I like these things. I don't like these things. And like that is who I am and take a relief that kind of thing. Those are so much easier places to like have those interactions with because, you just you're getting more sure of yourself. But when you're not, it tends to be a bit more.

awkward or feels forced and it just depends on your mindset as you go into

Bradley Bernard (13:40)
Yeah, it's kind of like talking to a celebrity in the tech world. Like you've interfaced with them, you want to go talk to them. You're not sure if they remember you because you only have your Twitter avatar and they probably get 10 times as much engagement and interactions as you do. So like talking to them, it's like you wait in the line after they finish their talk, you walked up to them, you're like, hey, my name's Brad. We've talked on Twitter, not sure if you remember me, but love to talk, ask them a few questions.

have nothing to say because you've been waiting in that line and then they probably hear the same question a hundred times. So in the back of my head, like, you know, I just want to talk to them and get them in like a, you know, one -on -one setting that's more private, but you're kind of in the conveyor belt of like people that are ready to meet you. And so I did that in Laracon and actually luckily I stayed at the same hotel as a few cool folks. So when I was shuttling over to the hotel or to the venue, I met even more people there.

So in the next LeraCon that I'm going to next month, I think it's in Dallas, Texas. So I'm staying at a hotel that's probably 20 minutes away, walking distance. And hopefully there's some cool Leravel people that are staying there. If not, I'll meet them at the conference. it's like, it's one of those situations where you just like, you want to go talk to people, but then in the engineering space, it's a little bit more introverted. Like you mentioned, like a lot of people just want to code and kind of chill. But when you're out there in these conferences and you paid money, it's

I need to go flip a switch and be a different person and like, you know, be very extroverted because it's very easy to get there and do nothing and kind of like be by yourself, open up your computer. So you really have to like flex a different muscle. And when I first went to Laracon last year, or like when I went by myself for the first time, I had a bit of a struggle of like opening up and doing that. Like when I got there, I told myself that checklist to talk to these six people. I think it was maybe after the first day I was like,

You know, I think I talked to two and I was like, I still need to get to all these other people. It felt a bit overwhelming. but then there was like the after party, which is a nice opportunity, but it's like a bit loud and people are drinking. And then the opportunity that I liked the most, which is kind of a conference hack is the final day when people were giving their talks. everyone pretty much takes off early. So I think Laracon was a Wednesday, Thursday ordeal. And on Thursday ended at 5pm.

conference hall was pretty much empty since people had left like after the talks and they're wrapping up the stage and everything and like there's no competition to talk to anybody. So I was just going around talking to all the speakers, talking to all the people that were on my list and being like, wow, like I was a bit concerned I was going to leave without getting to these final people. And luckily enough, I found an opportunity to do it I was like, that made it so worth it. So I got tons of one -on -one time with people that I had interfaced with and cared about. And yeah, that was kind of like a game changer for me.

Bennett Bernard (16:25)
Yeah. I think you mentioned something about like the conveyor belt and how like that is when like it can feel kind of awkward. Like what do you open with? And like, you know, it's almost and I think some of that comes from it's so easy to come off like transactional. And, you know, if you're talking to someone, especially someone who has like a certain like status as or like an authority on like a subject. like, you know, I don't know of anyone in the Laravel space, but

Bradley Bernard (16:33)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Bennett Bernard (16:52)
There's a person you're like, this person is he's the guy or he's the girl. And that's like who everyone wants to talk to. And like I think from the interactions that I've had with those kind of scenarios on my side, it's like it's best when you try to come off as like authentic as possible. But of course, there is like an understanding to that, like, you know, there is like a transactional element to it. And I kind of think about it in terms of like it's almost like tears where I feel like when you are

starting out your career, for example, and like you were going to those events, like you're going there, you're likely going to be asking them lots of questions and kind of wanting to like, you know, have them know who you are, but you don't want to make it all about yourself. Like you're not talking about because you probably don't have anything going on. Like you're there to go learn from them or go meet them and like you're maybe inspired by them. But I think as you move up, you do want to at least kind of have you probably have more genuine, like authentic questions about like something that you're doing or like.

And I feel like that's where it becomes off a bit less transactional. almost not that you see each other peer to peer, but like you kind of, you know, I think your subject matter expertise in the area is better. And so you can probably ask better questions or in your case, especially, you know, at one point you were an employee going to these events and that's a different mindset than like when you go for yourself, for your business, because you say, Hey, this is important for me to know. And I have really like probably specific questions to like my use cases that

they probably haven't heard before. Whereas like when you're an employee at a company, they probably have heard a lot of those questions before if they've done a bunch of those kinds of events. you know, trying to make it come off as genuine as possible, easier said than done for sure. But, you know, I think that's something that again, when the when the more difficult interactions have occurred, in my opinion, it's when it feels like it's like, I'm just here just to like say hi. And I feel like I have to do this, you know what I mean? And it's just like, it doesn't sit as well.

Bradley Bernard (18:47)
Yeah. And a funny part is you can kind of stick around the person that you talk to and hear like other intros. And I had done that at the time where I talked to somebody kind of stuck around, like hung around within the vicinity and just kind of heard people introducing themselves. And I was like, I actually didn't do too bad. Cause I feel like there's a lot of people that the conversation didn't flow as much or like the intro is a little bit like more awkward than mine. And I was like, okay. Like I'm not a super social person and I can definitely overthink things, but

feel like the delivery was good enough that I didn't stand out and like, oh, I love Brad, but like, you know, it was good enough that I was one of the few that maybe not forgotten, but just didn't stand out as like, oh, that wasn't great. There's definitely people that come up with questions that are super difficult that I think speakers don't want to hear. Like, hey, I have, you know, a minute or two to talk to you about if I come up with this really complex MySQL question, for example, I'm not going to hold the line and answer for 10 minutes and ask you all the nuance, like details about

I'm just going to say, hey, let's talk about this offline. So it's like finding the right question to take 45 seconds or a minute, sharing your own personal information with them, carrying personal information about the person you're talking to, then kind of moving on. You want to have a bite -sized chunk and not much more past that, just to be respectful of everybody's time.

Bennett Bernard (20:07)
Yeah, yeah, it's almost like if you ask me a question that complex, you have to pay me for that answer because, you know, we got to we got to get a whiteboard out. Yeah.

Bradley Bernard (20:13)
Right, right. I think that's valid. Yeah. And I don't know if you've been to the internal conferences, but now that I'm looking back on it, I also went to an internal mobile conference while I was at LinkedIn. So I think it was on the Microsoft campus. They flew out like Microsoft people and LinkedIn mobile people, and they basically just did cross team sharing or like cross company sharing of like best practices. think there's presentations from the outlook team

Microsoft's iOS side, were super like intelligent about how they built the mobile app. And then we have LinkedIn people talking about it. And I think the theme of that one is more architecture. And it was cool because we could talk about things that are a bit harder to share. When you go to these conferences that are external, everything is a bit more generalized. Like, Hey, at my company, we do this, but we can't really tell you exactly what we do. Like at these internal conferences, people are showing code or talking super deeply about a process.

We could go adopt that and we could go chat them after the conference. Like we like we're in the same company, you know, effectively. So those are fun. And I think the, like the outcomes that you get from those are also similar to being an employee where you want to go return with findings, but you don't feel like the social pressure and it's much more comfortable because you know more people. Whereas when you go to the conference as an employee, you know, a lot less people, it's easier to stick to like the people, you know, and not network as much. The internal ones are kind of fun because

It's a great mix of like super applicable, you know, a lot more people and if you don't, it's easy to get to know them and then stay in touch with them. So I really like those ones

Bennett Bernard (21:45)
Mm hmm. Yeah. Do you prefer maybe you don't have a preference, but do you think about like you get the most enjoyment or most fulfillment out of like highly technical conferences that are about like specific code or like specific features? Or do you feel like the ones that you've gotten the most out of have been a bit more general, but maybe have a more of a focus on like a social element? Like what do you what do you feel like of the ones that stand out to you that have been like, I had a great time and

got a lot out of that, where does that kind of balance lie for

Bradley Bernard (22:18)
Absolutely the technical stuff at least to begin with, because when I'm evaluating conferences, especially for my employer to spend money on, it's, you know, who's speaking, like it has to be people that a good roster at least to speak. And then what are they talking about? If it's all these topics I don't really care about, not as exciting. Like I show up there because of the roster and the topics. And then I try to find value like within those,

there can be a good lineup and a good roster and the talks just either aren't good or like I'm above or below the skill level that they're talking at. So there's a whole bunch of criteria that needs to fit for it to be like a knockout of the park, but definitely initial evaluation is who's there? What are they talking about? What location is X? A lot of times there's a restriction to us only where I think I tried going to like a Sweden conference and the budget was just insane and there was like 50 seats or something. I was like, Oh, that'd be so cool.

Like realistically, it wasn't worth a company's dime to pay for that. So it's funny, like a popular conference, which attracts the best speakers, attracts the best topics and usually is relevant topics for building, you know, mobile and web apps. So I don't think I've ever been to any like social first conferences. I think I would like to try one because I've been to like only technical. But yeah, just haven't gotten around to it yet.

Bennett Bernard (23:34)
Yeah, I also enjoy when they're out of town a bit better than when they're in town because it feels like you can kind of like, you know, it's right where like you're just there to like do that thing. And like, you know, that's kind of like you wake up, you go to the conference, if there's like a social gathering after or like an after party, as you call it, like you're there and then you can kind of go back to the hotel. And it's like you're kind of I say locked in if that's too intensive a word.

Bradley Bernard (24:00)
Yeah, you can't escape.

Bennett Bernard (24:00)
You know, the conference, yeah, like you're just in that mode. Like I get in the mode. like, I'm like, this is the mode I'm in this week. And like, that's like, that's, that's who I am. And like, when I, you know, either I get back home or when I'm not doing the conference, I'm back in normal work. It's like a different, it's not a different person. That's too dramatic, but like, you know, you're just in a different, like mindset of like what you want to do that week. And so when I went to the first, the conference I went to that I was referring to earlier was actually, was a mortgage bankers association, like finance and accounting conference.

Bradley Bernard (24:06)
Yeah.

Bennett Bernard (24:29)
It was my first one of that kind. And it was in Nashville, which was super cool. It was my first time being in Nashville too. So I was like, this is great. I get to go to a city I haven't been before, check it out, you know, on the company's dime, right? It wasn't like a sponsored thing. And so got to do that. But then, you know, the content was pretty good. You mentioned something about skill level and it's like, there are certain sessions I sat in where I was just probably above the skill level that was intended for the audience, which is okay.

So I didn't get as much out of those but then there's other ones or like the social gatherings were you know, where I feel like I got the most out of it So I did that conference again, I think the following year or maybe just there was a year gap But then they did it in Phoenix and so I went there again, but I was like driving back and forth Yeah, it was like yeah, and it was like it was like an hour drive So it was like I should still go but I was like, you know I thought I don't just make sense for me to get hotel. There's just an hour away.

Bradley Bernard (25:13)
Not as far away.

Right.

Bennett Bernard (25:23)
It was still good. And then again, got a lot out of it. I say out of town is the way to go, because it just you can kind of you know, not only is it again, you kind of locked in a bit more, but it's also just fun to see new places if you haven't been, you know, to that wherever it

Bradley Bernard (25:35)
Yeah. Yeah. I've done New York, Nashville was Laracon. did Kentucky for Laracon and then San Francisco and New York one was awesome because I extended the trip, you know, stayed on the company's dime for hotel during the conference. And after that, like switch hotels and did my own thing. So that was pretty fun. But yeah, absolutely would recommend travel with it because yeah, again, it puts you in a different spot. You can't like really hide, you know, you're, you're in a zone, you're going to get things done. and it's just

more fun to do things with people. Like while you're at the conference, you can talk to other people and say, Hey, like you want to go explore after the conference or like before the conference or after. So it gives you like an excuse to go hang out with people where if you're in your hometown or like, you know, somewhere closer or you're driving, it's not as easy to pull that off. And people would be like, you're from here. Like come take me around or show me around here. But if it's both people exploring a new spot, that's a little bit easier of like an icebreaker in terms of conversation to like things flow a bit easier.

Bennett Bernard (26:33)
Yeah, totally. Yeah, I'm trying to attend a bit more of like a CPA. So every state probably has like their own CPA society, at least California and Arizona, which is the two states I'm licensed in, certainly do. And so I'm going to try to start attending more of those events a bit more. They are typically like in Phoenix or Scottsdale. And so like for me, for where I'm at, it's a bit of a drive. So I kind of got to get over that because I've been very cushioned

the remote work environments like not driving. And I feel like now I act like I'm a New Yorker that like I don't want to ever get in my car because it's like I'd rather just like, yeah, if it's two, if it's five miles away, I don't even want to go. But try to trying to start to attend a bit more of those and get some stuff out of that as

Bradley Bernard (27:14)
Yeah, I would love to do a conference as a speaker too. It's, on my bucket list of things to do, like present something that's deeply technical, but also approachable at a lot of different levels. So each level gets something out of it, which I really love as a talk because it's super technical. You've eliminated like 80 % of the people there and the other 20 % are like, Oh, this is the perfect content for me. So it's hard to find that right level of skill to say, you

Important not over my head and also I can translate it to like whatever my company is doing to bring things back. So Haven't done it yet. Like you got to build up the Twitter cloud or like the online reputation Then you have to go apply to these conferences saying here's my topic. Here's like a rough proposal Then you have to get approved and then know, I think you get a free ticket probably probably then I don't know maybe free flight not too sure but it's it's like a big resume builder and I've heard there's a lot of job opportunities

So like if you're a speaker, you give a conference talk on building web apps in Laravel at high scale. Like the next thing you know, you open up your mailbox and there's a job offer from Netflix and Google because they loved your talk. You you got on stage, you presented something awesome and like, you know, the rest is history. So it's on my list to do that. Haven't done it yet. I would need to find a good topic, a good conference and build up that reputation so I feel comfortable. And I'm sure it'd be nerve wracking being on stage in front

Even though they're 500 engineers, like still, that sounds terrifying to

Bennett Bernard (28:44)
Yeah. Yeah. Would you? So I recently spoke at like a get together for all of like the accounting org where I work. And so I want to say it was like 30 or 40 people. And it is pretty nerve wracking. Like I'm not going to lie. You know, like I, I tried to prepare, you know, and it's like, it's one of those things where it's almost, and I don't, I haven't dug deep into this, but I almost feel

Bradley Bernard (29:02)
Yeah, absolutely.

Bennett Bernard (29:12)
The only way you can prepare is just by doing it to a degree. Cause like you can read as many books as you want. You can like stand in front of the mirror and practice, but like there's something that's just different about having those eyeballs on you that is just like, Oh, you know, this is, this is legit. Like this is real. And I think when I did my presentation, I probably think it was like only 15 minutes. So it was like one presentation of a part of a bigger presentation.

Bradley Bernard (29:14)
Yeah.

Bennett Bernard (29:36)
You know even that 15 minutes, you know, and I was really glad I did because I've been trying to like seek those opportunities out for myself as well But yeah, I mean it's it's just such a different thing like you can rehearse it all all you want Then you run the risk of being you sound rehearsed. So you don't want to sound rehearsed, right? The best yeah, so it's

Bradley Bernard (29:49)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of things that can go wrong. Yeah. Like even doing internal presentations at companies, like being remote, like you would think it's like a safety blanket. There's plenty of times where I would do presentations like at Meta and like, I have it down pat. And then like, once you get on camera, just things fly out the window. At the end of the day, like people would always message me, that presentation was great. Like really loved what you did. And like, usually you get great feedback. There's never been a time where I like completely butchered something.

But the amount of preparation that you put in, you think like, oh, you know, I'm to be like mentally just 10 out of 10. Then when you get there, it just feels so different. So putting that on a larger scale of like in person, like you mentioned, like even with 30 people, that's a lot. And now it's 500 people. Like, oh, like you definitely got to work your way up and you could do a smaller conference or like a smaller get together on a frequent basis and build up that skill. But yeah, it would definitely be nerve wracking.

Once I get closer to doing it, think it'd probably be worth my time to start demoing out a little bit of an audience and stage speaking.

Bennett Bernard (30:55)
Yeah, and it's funny because for accounting, if you attend a session, like if you're just part of the audience, certain sessions, if they're technical in nature and they meet other requirements, you can get credits for your continuing education requirements, which is like, yeah, everyone always procrastinates and does 80 hours in two days, which doesn't make any sense, of course. But so it's interesting, though,

Bradley Bernard (31:09)
that's cool.

Mm -hmm.

Bennett Bernard (31:22)
If you sit through a 55 minute presentation and you answer the questions, you get like one hour typically is how it works. One, which is like one credit. But I think if you speak, I don't know the exact ratio, but I'm pretty sure if you speak or if you're the presenter of that material, then I think it's like three credits or something like that. So you get more and it's almost like it, you know, it almost like just recognizes that like there's so much extra to like being able to convey that information, you know, like it compensates you better.

even in just continuing education. like you said too, mean, it's just, I imagine a huge resume boost to be like, yeah, I spoke at Alericon about how awesome Django is. I'm just kidding. But yeah, like, you know, like you did that and then like, you know, when you're saying, and then people are just reaching out to you for job. mean, what a world would that would be where you're just like, you're just directly recruited from all these different companies that, you know, have great roles for

Bradley Bernard (31:59)
yeah.

I know.

I I think the first coding conference that I went to, I was employed by PayPal and I couldn't believe at all the booths that are at the conferences. there's all these software companies that are at the software conference, obviously, error logging, reporting, analytics, whatever. Every time I went to one of these booths, like you have your badge on, they talk to you. then like at the end of every conversation, me learning about the product, it's like, we're also hiring. Like, here's our card. If you want like reach

mentioned you're at the Tri -Swift Conference and SF and like, we'll get you fast -tracked. And I was like, wow, this feels like a very recruiting heavy process. Like I did not come here, like I came here purely for technicals. Like my second conference I'd ever been to, first one as an employee. And I was thinking, wow, if like you wanted to, you know, leave your job, like if you came to one of these events and you're hungry, like it almost seems like it would work out. And I don't think it's like that as much today. There's less conferences in person.

There's probably less hiring going on in general, but back in 2017, 2018, 2019, and the tech kind of boom, it felt like that was a strategic move to find other opportunities. I'm not sure a lot of people did it, but looking back on it, was like, oh, if you were looking, that'd be a good spot to look.

Bennett Bernard (33:30)
in the tech boom of all the Day in the Life videos that ran rampant from all the fan companies. That single -handedly, I think, caused all the layoffs. Everyone was just exposing all the non -work they do.

Bradley Bernard (33:35)
Can't comment on that.

Yeah, Yuan didn't really help too much

Bennett Bernard (33:46)
Yeah, before we move on from like conferences and speaking, I was going to say and I completely lost my train of thought, but I'm coming back to it now. One thing I'll end up doing to that is just again, like it's more like a personal struggle for me. And I'm curious if you do something similar or if you don't think about it that way. But I will say I don't want to be too rehearsed. So I can't like this is no big deal. Bennett, like just just like, you know, off the cuff, like just be yourself, just say your material. But then it's like you don't want to

come off as like half hazard or like unprepared. And so it's like, need to know, I need to know every detail, but then pretend like I don't. And it's almost like you're like, it's, it's such a hard balance to like sound natural. And like, I have people, people I work with that are like just naturals and I completely admire them. I tell them like, that was awesome. Like, you know, you're so, you're so good at that. And you know, it's just when you can do it well, make such a difference. Like we have a, there's a, an economist, at the company I work

Bradley Bernard (34:17)
Mm -hmm, yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Bennett Bernard (34:41)
who is just like very known for like giving awesome presentations. Like everyone always looks forward to her presentations. They're really engaging, they're funny, but they're also super informative. And it's just like, that's become a thing now. It's like, we got to go see her presentation. Like we're looking forward to it. And it's like, that is such a difficult, but like if you can do it well, like awesome. you know, I'm sure it just does well for your career and your own branding.

Bradley Bernard (35:05)
yeah. Yeah. I faced the same challenge. Sometimes I'll write things down as if I you know, crafted the perfect speech. And then when I read it back exactly, like you say, it sounds terrible. Like I'm, it sounded good in my head that I read it and I'm like, that's bad. Like if I ever read that, like, and I came out with it, like naturally it still wouldn't sound good. And so what I've been doing now is I'll write something down. I'll read it back, adjust it. And then I try to kind of like summarize each paragraph.

and have like a bullet point. So I don't miss anything and maybe it won't catch all the details if I actually try to run through from start to finish, but it feels way better and like it seems more engaging in a way that isn't as rehearsed. Cause yeah, you don't want to be that person who like, you know, is up there. Everyone's kind of sitting there like, he's done this a million times in the mirror. And like, we're not really, we're not important. Like we're not even an audience. We're just like, you know, like a brick wall. This person is talking to a brick wall. So I think you want to be engaging.

and there's so much skill and nuance to doing that well. I wouldn't say I'm an expert at it, I wish I was, but a lot of practice and I'm sure plenty of mistakes like everything in the world and then you'll probably be pretty good at

Bennett Bernard (36:14)
Yeah. The, the last thing I wanted to say on conferences and we can kind of move on to, another topic here. One thing that I've also been trying to do, this is more of a more recent thing. well the last two like in -person things I've been to, whether it was conference or like a work trip or whatever is I try to at the end of the day, like just take some notes on like if I met certain people, if I like talked about certain things with certain people, just to kind of keep it in and go back and look on it, like on the

plane ride home or, you know, just in the following week, because a lot of times there's so much going on, like when you're there in person and like it's, it's great. It's you're getting all this information or meeting all these people. But I think it makes a big difference. If you like, it's almost like you did this. I did this when I was interviewing too, where it's like when you interview somebody and you talk about a certain thing, it's kind of customary to send a follow -up email, or at least it was back in the days I was interviewing. And it was always great if you could like tie in like, we talked about this,

Just for example, like, you know, if I was interviewing in Orange County, California, and the person I was interviewing really liked Anaheim Ducks or really liked the Anaheim Angels, talk about the Angels for like two seconds. It's like, hey, it was great talking to you. Like, you go Angels. Like you tie in something that like. And so I think even even still, like when you're at conferences or you're in person, like trying to remember, like, was that one little thing that like this person can remember me by? Like, we talked about.

Bradley Bernard (37:26)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Bennett Bernard (37:37)
F1, or we talked about a certain code library in your engineering world. And so think writing that down, first of all, writing things down tends to cement it in your head better. But then also, too, you can go back and look on it. And then maybe when you do a follow -up or do a catch -up and say, hey, so -and is great talking to me about this. Happy to get coffee sometime. And like, yeah, I talked to Bennett about that. And yeah, totally would love to get coffee.

bringing like a little notepad or just making sure when I'm kind of done for the day back at my hotel, like just taking down those, those notes, something that I'm trying to do and just kind of helps keep it all organized in my

Bradley Bernard (38:16)
Yeah, you want to be memorable for sure. And I did that at Laracon where when I talked to the speakers and the people that had on my list after as I was flying home, you know, on the plane, I was reaching out to everybody on Twitter saying, Hey, like it was great meeting you kind of putting in like a little nugget of what we talked about. Like it's great talking about live wire or whatever. like I really appreciate your work and like, just wanted to say hi, like over Twitter since we interfaced, you know, face to face and

Half of those messages took a few weeks because they're not following me. And so it kind of goes in the void. Then they would kind of reach back out and say, I remember you, blah, blah. Half of them never answered. And then the other half answered immediately of, hey, I remember you. It great chatting with you. And then you get that validation of, they're not just that internet person. I've confirmed my status as being a real human being. You don't really know what they think of you. But it's better that than being this needy guy on the internet

asking for all this stuff. So I would absolutely recommend to reach out. Like I do the same thing for job interviews of like if something goes well, like you gotta be yourself, you gotta be kind and professional and just like on top of your stuff. Like people really appreciate like follow ups for pretty much everything. And so if you're at a conference, you should absolutely, if you reach out to people, like put in some nugget that you talked about and be strategic about that, which goes back to the awkward situation of talking to them. Like you want to have something that's unique

puts you a little bit different from the set of 40 people they talked to already. So think deeply, but not too deeply, because again, you want to make a mark in a good way, but don't try too hard, because then they know too. So you can never win.

Bennett Bernard (39:49)
Yeah, Yeah, needy, said needy and that's such a great word because like you don't want to come off needy, you know, and like be like, yeah, I mean, there's like that old saying or like everyone like no one likes a hungry or like a starving salesman, you know, where it's like you can kind of smell it on somebody when they're like, they really need this sale or like they really like, you know, want you to solve this problem for them. Like you don't want to come off needy. Like you want

come off with your own point of view and perspective and like you can ask good questions. But like, like you said, be professional, be kind and don't be needy. One thing to kind of take us in a different direction, but you had mentioned it earlier and I was like, I really want to bring this back up once we kind of move off the topic of conferences. You were talking about when you were going to places, like companies were reaching out and saying like, hey, like let's put you on the fast track interviewing.

And it was because you were there in person, like attending these events, right? And where that kind of took me back or where I kind of started thinking about that and what you said was like the difference between being like exceptional and being like just regular successful like in your career. And I think even in your case for like, you know, doing your own thing, you're not really employed at the moment. You're, you know, doing Vox by it. But like the difference is so much as just effort and like how much you're putting in

I feel like, you know, that is an example of like, Hey, I'm going to these conferences. I'm going and doing the awkward thing of like talking to people I don't know, which is like awkward for most people. And again, you're an engineer, I'm an accountant. Those are not known to be the most extroverted industries in the world. but you know, just making that, that tough effort of like pushing through what you might kind of naturally not want to do can just make such a difference in your career. And, know, I'd be curious in your case, like, do you feel like that's been widely true of

Bradley Bernard (41:21)
Right.

Bennett Bernard (41:36)
The people that just get, you know, and there's nothing wrong with this, but the people that kind of just do the standard work and they just are happy to doing that. The difference between that versus like being really successful in your work, it's not that big of a gap. It's just like, it's just that incremental effort that you put in that just makes all the difference.

Bradley Bernard (41:54)
Yeah, I've always been one to do a lot on the side. Like I really am passionate about programming and creating things. So I'm probably a bad example of like how to compare, you know, someone who's doing what they do and someone who's like doing what they love. but it reminds me of a recent podcast that I listened to where this guy put up a job posting. He had mentioned that he got like a thousand applicants and the people that stood out were the people that put in the extra effort. So he mentioned a cover letter.

a personal website. And if you have a personal website, making sure that your blog post isn't about four years old. So just things that, you know, as someone who's like trying to look their best, putting in that extra effort in places where it matters to stand out because he had so many applications. How do you filter that down and get to something that's reasonable? Well, it's who put in that extra effort to go and make themselves presentable. So, you know, I have a personal website. I write blog posts once a month. I have

like side projects that are now real projects, real products under VuxByte And I think with all that effort, it's more normal for me. And I think like putting that in, like I love it, but comparing it to like the average person who might not put as much effort in after work or like have as much passion day to day, I still think it's viable. Like by all means, you can still advance your career pretty far, but you have to be good at specific skillsets.

Um, to like progress as an engineer, like you have to be really good at communication and writing blog posts and talking to people at conferences and putting yourself out there is a huge gain for that. So all that extra effort, as long as you're putting in the right spot, I would say you're geared for success. There's a very few things I think that you can do that can hurt you. So for example, if you like tinkering, you know, with Nintendo 64 games and trying to hack them, maybe not, won't help you write a better mobile app, but you know,

being more technical, learning about the deep understandings that some of these things can ever hurt you. So I think it's good to put in the extra effort where you can. I think you should be mindful about where to spend that extra time if you're trying to look your best. But I don't think it's fully required. But in certain situations, it might be. Not sure if that answered the full question,

Bennett Bernard (44:07)
Yeah, well, no, mean, yeah, definitely just it's your perspective on it. think, you know, it's almost like what you do with that information to like to take it back to your Nintendo 64 example. Like, you know, maybe you learn that and you get super tactical about hacking Nintendo 64 games. like, do you apply that? And like, can you use and, you know, I don't know if that's just it would just be someone's hobby. But like, can you apply that somewhere to the person who ultimately gives you a check if you're working for a company? Like, can you apply that knowledge that you got from

And like take the extra step of just kind of taking that extra step is really a lot of times the difference between like an A player and like a B or C player. One thing that's your we talked about before how you're probably consider yourself fortunate that like at age 12, I would guess like you kind of knew exactly what you wanted to do and like not everyone is like that. So let me pose this question to you in this way. A lot of times effort

Is really more of a challenge when you have to do something that you don't want to do but like you have to whether it's you know by force of your job or like you have to because it's Important to do so like like your taxes like no one wants to do their taxes But like you have to do it. Otherwise, you're gonna go to jail. So I guess in your case Can you think of any times or like, you know in your career? Or you've like I really don't want to do this but I'm still gonna give like an a effort versus like a B or like

Or versus like, you I'm just going to tick this box and kind of just get it done, but not really put too much into it, not apply too much on

Bradley Bernard (45:43)
That's a good question. think there's definitely things as an engineer that I don't like doing, and it depends on like the team that I'm operating on or the project that I'm working on. There's could be a handful of honestly anything like there's code that is hard to work with. And maybe I'm adding a feature to this mobile app, but it's built in a way that's just really hard to do it. And so you can spend.

you know, 10 hours trying to understand the code, figure it out, fix other people's bugs, and then you finally get to what you want it to do. So the end goal of me writing feature code to add a new feature, awesome. But me getting there along that process and spending the, you know, not fun hours doing things that I don't love doing, not super fun. But I feel like I still give most everything like an A effort. Like I'm not really one

Like, just because I don't like this, you know, I'm going to drag my feet. It's like, yeah, like I don't think there's any job out there that you're going to love everything. And so for the parts that you don't like doing, like might as well get better at it and put yourself in an uncomfortable spot or put yourself in a spot where you need to learn a lot, get better at it move on. Then you can get to the spots that you like better and you can spend more time there. So like, I feel like as I've grown in my career, the more times I'm doing presentations or like interviews or being the interviewee or just

putting myself out there and exposing myself to the uncomfortable, the awkward, it has like always turned out in my favor. So as long as you can keep pushing yourself, I think you're going to do just fine. And it's as, as when you get in that stage where you're not, you know, pushing forward and you're kind of, I don't really care that much about my job, or I don't really care much about this project. Then like you'll lose motivation. You won't challenge yourself and you kind of get stuck in a rut. As long as you can keep putting yourself like a new challenge in front of you, whether that be, you know, at work, or you can kind

craft your own adventure. Like if you're doing a project, maybe you invent some new challenge for yourself. So I think, yeah, there's definitely things I don't love. But at the same regard, there's tons that I do. And I'm lucky to have a job that I do the majority of things that I like. But either way, I think you got to be wearing plenty of hats like in this, you know, kind of economy in this like structure, you really can't just be that one person who does this one thing really well. You got to be flexible.

Bennett Bernard (48:01)
Yeah. Yeah. And I remember, you know, this is, this actually impressed me. remember, when we were in high school or I guess I was in high school, maybe I was in college and you were in high school. can't remember what it was, but you know, when I was a kid, when I was your age, I remember like being like, like I was just playing oblivion and like skateboarding. And then you would like be like coding stuff. And part of it was like, you enjoyed that stuff, but then also too, like you were making money from it. And I was like, you know, that takes some internal

Discipline and effort to like not just play oblivion and like do you know, frankly what like a normal kid does, you know You're a normal kid. I'm not trying to paint you out to be some weirdo But like, know, you were like you would definitely like be like, I could easily just play gears of war But I'm I really want to do and build out I and follow I really want to do this. So You know, it's something that's internal. I think that's something that you just You know you sometimes people just naturally have it or sometimes we want to work more towards it. But

Layering in like always seeking a challenge like if I don't have a challenge that I'm like working on like or I'm like looking forward to like that's where I feel like I'm in my Lowest points. That's like I'm not learning anything. I'm not being challenged. I'm not being you know utilized to like What I think is the best of my abilities like that's a spot that like I don't want to be in you know I mean like and so I'll try and find ways to like get myself out of that

Sometimes people don't realize that they're in that, you know what mean? Like they're just so busy with the hamster wheel that they don't realize like, I'm not being challenged. I'm not learning anything. And so always just having the awareness of like, am I being fully utilized? Like, can I do more? Like what would doing more look like in my role or in my company, you whatever your situation is. But yeah, just always, always staying, always trying to improve. There's a really good speech by Ray Lewis, who's like

Bradley Bernard (49:29)
Yeah.

Bennett Bernard (49:52)
all -time linebacker Hall of Famer in football and he's like no for like doing speeches that would like make you want to run through a wall so like it's very on -brand for him but he has a speech that basically is like says like effort and like passion is free like no one can make you run to the ball like that is only gonna come from you like you know coach isn't gonna make you run to the ball like it's only gonna come from you and it's like you can listen that speech and be like I'm ready

I'm ready to get this tax return done. You're like, damn, let's do this tax return. But yeah, so it's something always to kind of keep in mind for

Bradley Bernard (50:19)
Hahaha.

Yeah.

Yeah. And when I first started coding, I think that was part of the beauty of it was everything was new to me and there was so much content to grasp and so many concepts that I knew were going to be important when I like built these projects in high school that it was just like YouTube every day during summers, like, you know, my SQL videos, PHP videos, PayPal API videos. Like there was so much content that I knew I had to piece together. It was free.

accessible and like building a website at that time didn't cost a ton of money. was just renting a server for 10 bucks a month and a domain for 10 bucks a year. And I was just off to the races like eight hours a day putting in, know, tons and tons of work, but I just loved it. it like days would go by fast. Like I'd sit there code and you know, it'd be dinner time and I'd be like, wow, like that was

Pretty fun and I'm excited to do it again tomorrow and for the next full week and know, repeat that for accident. When summer is over, I was like, damn, I, least I built something that I loved and like it, you know, most of the time did okay. But yeah, it was, was a fun time. Like now when I learned programming and learn new concepts, I don't have the same like, everything is new, but it's really fun when I change languages or put myself in a different spot. And I do have that like kind of renewed passion.

picked up Rust for a little bit on a project and it felt the same way where I'd never used it, opened up like an open source program in Rust and looked at it and I was like, what the heck is this? Like I, know Swift, I know like C, Python, tons and tons of languages I've touched and that thing just looked quite different. And then I got into weeds. Like I got super into it. was like a challenge to me of, I'm going to figure this out. I'm going to make it better. and at the end of that, that was like a super fun challenge. It just felt like being like naive and new again.

And it kind of reminds me of having new college graduates join the workforce. Like you get these people in here who have had, you know, fresh learning, fresh teaching, fresh perspectives. And it's like, what can you learn from these people where they might not have the experience, but they just have a different point of view on it. And it's like having that newcomer's point of view can sometimes be super beneficial.

Bennett Bernard (52:39)
Yeah, and I think in any career at least I'm this way. It sounds like you're definitely this way. I think a lot of people are this way. When you are engaged in something that's challenging, but you're learning a bunch and you feel like there's a reward or there's a payoff, like in terms of like this website is going to do something for me or like this automation is going to save me all this time. It's going to, you know, this can lead to a promotion. It's going to lead to a bonus. Like when you feel like you're in those, that area where you're being challenged, you're learning and there's like

a means to an end for all this or like there's like an end goal in sight that work doesn't feel like work. Like you are just intrinsically motivated to like, I'm excited about this. And like, that's where like, you know, people go into their day and they enjoy it versus the areas where it's like, this is really low value. I'm not interested. I'm not learning. And like, this is just doesn't get me anywhere. Like that's the exact opposite. So, yeah, it's definitely something that be aware of, you know, make sure like you're doing the right stuff. You can't only have

the like exciting, amazing stuff. Like there's always gonna be a balance, know, like again, no one wants to do their taxes, but you know, just trying to have that balance be, you know, I guess not even a certain ratio, but just like where you feel happiest at, you know what I mean? And it's just like, that's as long as you're in that sweet spot, then you you're

Bradley Bernard (53:56)
Yeah, it is such a sweet spot. And then this is a casual reminder to everybody. It might be worth checking in, see what you're doing day to day, see if there's any other challenges you could take on or kind of modify your work or talk to your manager or other teams or directors or anything up the chain to see if there's opportunities where you could push yourself to see if there's any new learnings, new challenges to take on because it might feel uncomfortable. But I think once you get down to it and you put yourself in a new position where you're kind of out of your comfort zone.

That's where you level up the fastest. It's really a spot where if you have to do something, you're going to do it and you care about it you're going to do it well. And the combination of those two, putting in time, being uncomfortable is really going to add up to make yourself like much more successful and a wider skill set. So just a casual reminder to all the listeners out

Bennett Bernard (54:45)
Yeah, I could say another 30 minutes at least on that topic, but let's let's pivot a little bit. What are you looking forward to this week? What's what's on the horizon for you in terms of Voxbite and things that you got going

Bradley Bernard (54:59)
Yeah, it's honestly probably one of the biggest weeks I've had in, I don't know, four or five months. so I've, I've gone over the long painful decision -making process of understanding where I want to be, where VuxByte needs to be and what the future looks like. So the TLDR is that, I've been working on split my expenses mobile app. And so this is something that.

I wasn't super thrilled to build, to be completely honest. I had built it as a web app to begin with, so you could bill Split with friends. Then the number one customer asked comes in saying, build an iOS app, build an Android app. And I get it. All the apps out there that do bill splitting have a pretty first class mobile use case. It's just I built my site originally as a side project, then it became a product. And that's kind of where we are today.

And so over the past few months, I've been kind of dragging my feet. Oh, I don't want to build this. Um, at the end of April, I decided, Hey, I'm going to build this mobile app because that's what I need to do as a, as a product. But I was really kind of tossing between the idea of like, how's that going to make me more money? And the sad answer, at least the more realistic answer is it's probably not. Um, it could, but it's not going to, you know, make my revenue shoot up 20 ,000 % of where I want it to be. So as I started building it

In my head, I was like, okay, it's not a huge moneymaker, but I feel like it completes the product as a full like web app and mobile app. And so with that kind of decision in mind, I was thinking, well, the finances for VuxByte aren't anything what they were as working full time. So how do I get back to something after I've done my 12 months that can kind of bring the finances back in check? Um, and so this past week, been kind of brushing up on the resume, understanding what I want

you know, put out there for myself as an individual and kind of marketing myself again. So using a lot of AI tools to spruce up the resume, just like talking points on like work that I've done at companies. So yeah, I'm getting back out there, putting myself out there on, on the markets. I'm looking for like senior to staff iOS engineering roles. So I'm pretty much an open book. at this point, like, you know, we have the podcasts, obviously, like I work daily on Twitter, kind of post what I work on.

My resume says a lot about stuff that I've worked on. Like people can contact me. very open. So I'm curious to see how this job search is going to go. I think it was really hard for me to decide to kind of like soft pause things. I want to go find a job, you know, in the next few months. and I want to like get the mobile app out as well, but the mobile app is a little bit on a pause just because like I want to get a job sooner than later. So I was maybe

65 % done with it and said, Hey, know, given my 12 months, given how the trajectory of things look, I'm happy with the products that I made. It's just not making the same amount of money. So what can I do to get back on track? So I'm going to start interviewing pretty soon. I'm to start applying to places. I'm to post on LinkedIn. I think by the time the pod is out, I'll have a post on LinkedIn kind of announcing back on the market. So if you're listening to the pod as an employer, please reach out.

Yeah, a little bit of a tough spot because as a founder, you think, this is my baby. Like I can't step away from this. People love it. You kind of, you got to disconnect from that a little bit and think like, Hey, I need to do what's best for myself as much as I love supporting these people. And, know, sometimes I don't love supporting them, but for the most part I do. like I got to step away, do what's best for me. And I think this has come after like a lot, a lot of thoughts. So yeah, an absolutely big week.

Bennett Bernard (58:37)
Yeah, that's cool. Cause I think, you know, it's good to give people also the same like realistic picture. Cause I think I certainly see this, in my own industry of, know, you hear about people that left and like made their own business or something like that. And like, how amazing it is. But then you only hear, and I don't want to say the successor stories because that's not what I, you know, I'm hearing from you at all, but like

Typically that's the only voice that's amplified versus people that just say like, Hey, I did, when I did this and maybe they were doing fine with it, like this isn't for me. Like, I don't really like this. I go back like that doesn't make the headlines on indie hackers or, you know, accounting today. Right. And so I think it's, it's going to be nice to think people to have the appreciation and hear your thought process. Cause I had talked to you. like, why don't you do like, you know, consulting or why don't you do like more like agency work or like, you know,

Bradley Bernard (59:05)
Right.

Yeah.

Bennett Bernard (59:29)
hire you to build out like their projects, stuff like that. And you're like, I'm not interested. So it's like, you know, what I hear from you is almost like, Hey, I did this thing for you. I really wanted to try it out, but I'm also ready to try something new and, and, you know, my toe back into, you know, the employer market. So yeah, I'm it'd be interesting. I'd love to do a podcast episode on like a day in the life of like a founder, cause it'd be great to like, I'd so curious to hear like you.

When you're working for yourself and you're trying to build out a product like what do you wake up? You know, like what time do you wake up? Like what's your morning routine? Do you do like the cold blunge and the 4 a .m. or like what do you kind of so we'll say that for another podcast episode. But yeah, it's cool. So yeah, we'll look forward to your blog post and any companies that are out there. This dude's got the chops. Check him

Bradley Bernard (1:00:01)
You

boy.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's just being more realistic and honest with yourself. Like as I thought about my decision making and moving forward with being back out on the market, like I could hide it and say like, like VuxByte doing super well. And again, there's two ways to look at it. One is like, is it paying the bills or is it like fulfilling and have I loved the time that I spent there? I think is it paying the bills? It's an easy question. There's no secret behind it. I'm happy to say it's

And again what I've liked it to of course like, know, that's that's the end goal like forever job But I don't look back or like regret any of the 12 months that I've spent like the amount of learning I've had the amount of like just grit I've had to put in doing like a day -to -day working for yourself and like the crazy things that I've uncovered like in terms of mental health like that I didn't expect to you know, hit me as someone who thought oh, won't be that hard, know, and there's plenty of stories I've had like in high school that will probably get

of like super successful projects and that kind of pushed me to get here and I thought, oh, I can like recreate some of that success. Ultimately, there's a lot more to it than just, you know, writing code. There's timing, there's marketing, there's like just having the right customer profile in general. So yeah, it was a tough decision, but I think when I look back on this time, like even just talking about it, like in 12 months, I think it'll be the right thing. I've created a solid two products. I think there's a lot of room to grow in both.

I'm not really working on Chatty right now, but I think with all the AI innovation, there's space to make big impact there. I think once that mobile app is out for split my expenses, it's going to be a game changer. think I'm not depending on the revenue to like pay my bills. I have a much more different freedom in essence to like do what I want. So it's going to be an interesting next few months. I am going to make like a blog post about it and talk

customers that I have on both the products. But I think I've tried to be myself the whole time. Like I've never hid behind like the company or the product. Like I'm like, hey, this is me. I built it by myself. When people ask for things, I've also told them I have a long list of customers. I have a long list of asks. I'm just one individual. Like I appreciate your feedback, but to be completely honest with you, I don't want to lie to you and tell you it's coming out tomorrow. It's probably going to be a few months and some people don't love it. Other people love it and say,

Dude, your work is amazing. Like this is the best app ever. And I think being yourself, like everywhere on the internet is such a blessing because there's so much bots out there. so much AI out there. There's so many people who are just not fun to be around. So it's like, Hey, try to be yourself, try to be kind and you know, do the thing. But I think this will be another step in that direction for me where, like you mentioned, all you hear is my company got, you know, 500 million in funding. We just blew up, you know, like, and to be fair, I've had great milestones that I've shared on LinkedIn.

Not as much as the 500 million in funding, but things that I'm proud of and shared and thought were cool. sharing that I'm open to work or ready for a job, I think a lot of people will be interested and reach out like, oh, why'd you do that? And et cetera, a bunch of questions behind it. But when I started my journey, I was very clear with myself, setting expectations of timing and what that would look like when I got there. And being at that 12 month mark, writing that blog post, if you haven't seen

I'm going to my blog, check it out. wrote a 12 month look back on pretty much month over month, what I did, how I felt and like the evolution of my thought process. So a very in depth article. I pretty much wrote it for myself because I just had so many thoughts in my head. I was like, I need to get this down on paper. So I wrote one of those. I'll probably do another one for kind of the decision to pause things. But yeah, don't regret a single thing. And I think this will be a nice kind

development in my career, getting back out there, being back in a team environment will be great. There's a lot of things that being as an individual working without other people, like you just miss like the social aspect for one, like, you know, don't really think about it, but it'll, it'll hit you. and so changing the landscape, changing the scenery and yeah, looking forward to getting back out

Bennett Bernard (1:04:20)
Cool. Cool. We'll stay tuned for the LinkedIn posts and, yeah, excited to see that come out. Cool. So before we wrap this up for good here, let's go into our bookmarks or our kind of saved, interests for the week. I'll start. So I'll kind of preface this by saying I've worked with Django and Brad has tried to sell me on Laravel since for, years, and I would love to be there.

Bradley Bernard (1:04:31)
Let's do

For his own good.

Bennett Bernard (1:04:46)
Yeah, I'd love to be there. I do follow some of the Laravel people and we could talk about this another episode, but like the Laravel community is very active. They seem very collaborative and very open. I haven't seen that as much with Django. It's just, I think it's a sleepier framework, but like it's Python based. like, yeah, so, you know, it does the job for me and that's where my comfort zone is. But anyways, the point being is all the projects I've worked on with Django.

Bradley Bernard (1:05:02)
It's okay, it's okay.

Bennett Bernard (1:05:13)
where I felt like it was always really a struggle was integrating the ease of use with Django on the back end with all the modern and super cool tooling that JavaScript frameworks like React, Vue use. And so always just pairing up that really modern front end with the nice easy to use back end of Django.

And Tailwind too for like the CSS and yeah, all the CSS styling looks super clean. But I've always tried to like plug that into my Django projects to no success. So that's always been a point of frustration that in deployments, which we won't get into, but like those two things is what like has stopped some projects I've had like dead in its tracks because I get all the code done. It works beautifully when I just run on my local server and then I go to deploy and it's like the whole engine X crap doesn't work or.

Bradley Bernard (1:06:00)
So sad.

Bennett Bernard (1:06:07)
You know, it just looks like it's built from, you know, 2008 because the, don't have any good styling on it. So there is a link to an article from testdriven .io about building components, uh, with like tailwind and, um, they use a stimulus, which I was not familiar with, but basically it's just like Alpine JS, which I am familiar with from you actually. Um, so I read through part one, I haven't done the actual coding exercises with it yet,

super optimistic to get through that because I feel like that might solve one of my pain points. The deployment is still TBD, but just the walkthrough that they went through in that article, super detailed. And I think that's my exact problem, because I would love to build and just use the Tailwind templates and components that they have, because those look just super clean. And don't reinvent the wheel. But so I'm going to start looking into that. And I think there's a part two, too, that I'll link to. I haven't read part two at all yet.

Bradley Bernard (1:06:40)
Mm -hmm.

Mm

yeah.

Bennett Bernard (1:07:03)
I probably won't even do part two until I actually do the coding, like code along with part one. But when I saw that on the, I think it was on the May newsletter for testdriven .io, I immediately clicked and I was like, this is awesome. I've been needing something like this for a long time. Excuse me. So yeah, so excited about that.

Bradley Bernard (1:07:19)
Yeah, that's awesome.

And just quick shout out to Tailwind UI. So not sponsored, but Tailwind UI is probably the best $300 in terms of coding money I've spent. It's a one -time purchase UI library, kind of like what Ben mentioned, just components that come out of the box. So quick plug, but jumping over to my bookmark. Mine for the week is from Dylan Verma on X. So he creates pretty similar.

bookmark, but he creates marketing UI components for in react. And so his domain is magic UI dot design. If you go to it, it's these beautiful components, like a carousel scroll scrolling like left to right of, like, what do call it? Like social proof. So people tweeting like this product is great. There's like these beautiful.

animations of diagrams that flow into the center point and flow out. So can imagine like a chat GPT connector is his example. there's all these like floating docs or floating notifications. It's a little hard to explain, over voice, but if you go to magic UI dot design, he has all these beautiful components that you would see in these startup websites like linear or these like, you know, YC funded companies, you go to their landing page. It's full these beautiful things that as you scroll down, they're popping in your face. They feel lively.

So he has those, think they're for free. I'm not 100 % sure. I think like some are for free and some aren't. But he had posted a tweet saying for his design components, the startups that have used it have raised like $10 million collectively. Wouldn't really care too much about that to be completely honest. I think it's just the quality of the components are great and they're like mostly free. And so my next startup, whatever I do that, know, whatever I work on, I'm going to use some of these because I think they look great.

Maybe the times will change. Not sure when my next project is actually coming out. Don't really have anything, but they look great. So quick shout out to him and got a lot of open

Bennett Bernard (1:09:20)
Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, I mean a nice Lee composed website makes such a huge difference, you know, especially like without competitive and there's just so many like frameworks. I mean, even when I looked at the article I linked, I was talking about like the Dom and like how to manipulate the Dom. I was like, that's just it's just not my wheelhouse. But like getting it done right, you can't you almost can't go live with the website if it doesn't look up to par these days. I feel like it's just so competitive.

Bradley Bernard (1:09:46)
Mm -hmm. People judge it in about two seconds, so it sucks. Like you spend, you know, weeks, months, could even be years, and then they go to your website, the spacing is off there, or the font's a little weird, and then, you know, that small perception change in your toast. So it's good to, you know, lean on people who care a lot about design and spend, you know, many, many hours where I'm not as interested, but I do care about how it looks, so I'm definitely going to use

Bennett Bernard (1:10:11)
Yeah, that's cool. Awesome. All right. Well, I think that should wrap us up. I'm ready to watch House of Dragon. I haven't watched it yet. So I'm going to be excited for that. But yeah, thanks everyone for tuning in to episode four of our podcast. And we'll see you next

Bradley Bernard (1:10:26)
Sounds good, see ya